AI Revolution: The Journey of Bobcats Coding (with Barbara Varga-Baráth & Barbara Fazekas)

In this episode, Ben Maynard is joined by Barbara Varga Baráth CEO and Barbara Fazekas Chief Delivery Officer of Bobcats Coding, the AI-first product studio born from a coding bootcamp network and market testing. From Taekwondo mats and finance spreadsheets to context engineering pipelines and lightning-fast MVPs, the Barbaras share how they have navigated the AI wave without the hype goggles.

Together, they explore the difference between AI features and AI-enabled delivery, why context engineering is the new craft, and how an AI native culture can compress time to value from months to weeks. Expect candid takes on investor pressure, LinkedIn-level myths, multi-agent workflows with humans in the loop, and what it takes to ship responsibly at speed. No buzzword bingo. Just hard-won lessons for product and engineering leaders.

What You'll Learn:

• AI first, not AI only. When to build AI into the product vs using it to accelerate delivery, discovery, and ops
• Context engineering 101. How slicing information, model selection, and orchestration beat just prompting it
• Speed with judgement. 48-hour micro sprints, feature-first demos, and hitting conference-ready MVPs in weeks
• Expectation management. Educating clients beyond LinkedIn headlines and anchoring on business outcomes
• Culture over tooling. Why AI native mindsets, especially from Gen Z talent, change throughput and decision-making
• Policy in practice. Navigating compliance realities without stalling innovation

Key Takeaways:

• AI won't replace engineers. It superpowers the ones who design context and systems
• The biggest ROI today is often operational. Faster proposals, sharper research, leaner delivery
• Feature first, human in the loop beats big bang roadmaps in a fast-moving AI landscape
• Organisations that embed AI native habits like experimentation, automation, and knowledge sharing will outpace those that don't
• Hype is loud. Usefulness is quiet. Ship small, learn fast, scale what works

Who Is This For:

• Product leaders under pressure to add AI who'd rather ship value
• Engineering managers exploring multi-agent and human-in-the-loop workflows
• Founders and execs building an AI native culture that actually moves the needle
• Anyone tired of AI theatre and ready for practical playbooks

Host Bio

Ben is a seasoned expert in product agility coaching, unleashing the potential of people and products. With over a decade of experience, his focus now is product-led growth & agility in organisations of all sizes.

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Ben Maynard

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Product Agility Podcast

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Transcript

0:00

Do you think that organisations that want to make the most of AI in their customer facing products will be hindered and be less successful unless they can embed that mindset culturally? In order to really succeed, right and really turn the dial and using AI as part of a solution or an AI solution, you need that AI first AI native mindset throughout the organization to really kind of make the most of it. Like like Toyash, I guess Toyash finished his last presentation at product I saying that like it's not AI going to take our jobs, but it's some experts in my field who uses AI for for doing the job. So I guess it's it's a no brainer. Absolutely yes. Welcome to the Product Agility Podcast, the missing link between Agile and product. The purpose of this podcast is to share practical tips, strategies and stories from world class thought leaders and practitioners. Why I hear you ask? Well, I want to increase your knowledge and your motivation to experiment so that together we can create ever more successful products. My name is Ben Maynard and I'm your host. What has driven me for the last decade to bridge the gap between agility and product is a deep rooted belief that people and products evolving together can achieve mutual excellence. Hello everyone. It's been quite some time since we've done a new episode. I've been busy doing some really interesting work with one particular client, but more on that another time. That was my way of a short apology for not releasing an episode for quite some time, but it's lovely to see we've attracted so many new listeners during our hiatus. Interestingly, are a testament to the quality of guests that we've had on over the last 3 1/2 years shows actually. Our statistics have just kept going up. Say hello new listeners, Hello old listeners. It's brilliantly back. And today we're kind of starting with a bit of a bang because we have two awesome human beings. One of which you I'm very familiar with Barbara or Barbie as I am going to be trying to call her, and another Barbara, Barbara who are from Bobcats. Bobcats Coding and Bobcats are a company which I came across last year at the productised conference in Lisbon and I. Honestly at the time was blown away by their energy. Had a brilliant recording with a guy called Tamash about how he re tried to recreate Twitter using low code AI. There's a good episode of that if you didn't want to have a search for that in our library. You will find that from last year on of the talks in 10 and since then we've stayed in touch because I honestly think now with reflection that it was only a year ago that I was talking to Bobcats thinking that AI seemed like a great novelty thing and there's some really interesting things you could do with it, but it hadn't really caught fire like it has now. So now we find ourselves really on the eve of this like new dorm when it comes to technology, not only for technology can do, but also for for how us as product people, leaders, managers, whatever role we might hold in technology organisations like our mindset and our approach to things need to change. So I'm super excited first of all, to welcome both Barbara's founders of Bobcats Coding onto the podcast, but also really happy that Bobcats and the Product Jersey Podcast are partnering at Lisbon Productised again this year. I think there's still some tickets available. So if you did want to come and meet us in the flesh, we'll give you some more information on Productised later. Anyway, enough of my voice. Barbara and Barbie, welcome to the podcast. Hello everyone, nice to be here. Hi, I'm really happy to be here. Yeah. And we're really happy to have you. Like, this is such a lovely way to start. And it's not very often I have two guests at the same time. So it's really going to test my podcasting hosting skills today and hopefully they're not too rusty. I'll wait for everyone's feedback on whether or not they are or not. So as is the standard way of doing this, I always love our guests to give a little bit of an introduction to themselves and just so that the listeners can get to know you a little bit more. So who would like to go first? Barbie perhaps? Would you like to start? So hello everyone. I'm Barbara or as Hungarians call me Barbie. And yeah, that's real here. So I'm at the moment CEO and Co founder of Bobcats Coding. But about me very briefly, like I used to be a professional athlete. That's where I started my career. I was a Taekwondo competitor. You never told me that. Yeah, because it's not something we chat about the product. I Oh my God, I feel like start this episode again now, Bobby. That's that's important information because my son. Is a red belt Taekwondo? You see really ITF or WTFITFITF? Yeah, I was in ITF as well. So you guys see, let's talk about later. We'll park that for later. Sorry. Carry on Bobby. OK, so, but in the meantime, I graduated as an economist with so I with the faculty of marketing and that's what my career was about. So most of the time I did something marketing sales related for tech companies or tech related companies. And where we met with the with other Barbara is Green Fox Academy that was coding boot camp, one of the biggest ones in Central Eastern Europe where first I was the CEO that she was the CEO and we had a great time together. And when that story for that, that phase of our life was over, we did this other company together. Amazing. Well, we'll we'll kind of dig into that a little bit more, but thank you for sharing that. And the Taekwondo thing, I'm yeah, genuinely, genuinely impressed with. We can save that for Lisbon. Anyway, Barbara, let's say a little bit about you. And I'm the other Barbara, as I usually introduce myself. You can call me Barba. And I was working as a finance specialist at the beginning of my career before I moved to the IT industry. As Barbie already mentioned, we've been working together at Green Fox Academy. That's the place where I fall in love with the whole IT industry and working together with great engineers, software developers and mentors. And right now at Bobcats Coding, I'm the Chief Delivery Officer, which sounds really serious, but in practice, I'm kind of keep my fingers on the pose of every ongoing active project at Bobcats Coding and try to communicate a lot with the engineers and our clients as well. Fantastic. Yeah, Dave, when you say like deliveries in the title? If you get normally, at least in my mind, this is because of my previous experiences, it means you're like a bad ass. You know, you've had a kick ass. Tell people what to do, tell people to go faster, that kind of thing. But I'm sure it's a bit more nuanced than that. She's saying that kindly, but kindly. That's the secret. Yeah. So many points said to me, but you've got the most amazing ability to give people the most harshest feedback. But because you smile when you do it, people seem to accept it. And I'm like, oh, it's amazing. Yeah. Smiling and giving bad news. Well, it's always, it's like a superpower. So I'm intrigued, Right. Both of you seem to have had, I suppose, not a traditional pathway to get to where you are right now as they're coming from finance and marketing Like it's they're not, it's not traditional paths. And you find yourself now with this really successful studio product, Studio Bobcats, Bobcats coding for sure. And you know, for its full title and, you know, heavily on AI, Like how how on earth did you get from where you were and then meeting at coding boot camp to now kind of being at the, you know, the forefront of kind of of AI really, how on earth did that happen? Yeah, actually there was super straightforward I guess because we did not mention about the coding boot camp thing that it was coding boot camp with a head hunting agency combined Eastern Europe, you cannot run a coding boot camp stand alone because the tuitions are almost as high as in Western Europe. So we have to combine it with companies need for talent. So now we own a huge network and maybe here I give the word to Barba, we get from the huge network to the company. Yes, because at Green Fox Academy we were working together with thousands of creditor changers from Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. And when we decided to start this digital product studio, it was clear that there won't be any problem with hiring great developers because we were working closely together with a big of great talent. And the AI thing was like, that was just our destiny so to say, because we started the company like 2 months before the AI thing hit the fan. So to say and we were, you know, just testing out what should be your niche or where should we put our focus. And like we, we tried to run like tiny marketing tactics from a few like €100 and we were testing I, I can't remember 8 or 10 different technologies that were trending that time and nobody was interested in anything else, just AI. So really not choose AIAI, choose us. So, and just before you go ahead, yeah, before we funded the company, we made a lot of market research and interviewed a few successful agency founders. And it was clear that we have to find a niche for our studio to become successful on the market. And that's why we were following all the trends. And when AI, generative AI become a thing, we immediately know that that's our thing that we have. That's the trend that we have to follow. Yeah. And like to share some entrepreneurship background stories. For the first few months it was, it was like in case of any product development, it was a sales tagline. We were testing like, OK, but generative AI is here. But two years ago it was not clear that how So what the clients will want under this umbrella. So we, we were testing bunch of like sales headlines and different approaches and it took like 1 1/2 years to really understand where we can add value under this, under this umbrella. I find it really quite brilliant in a way. And I think also what you've shared then does invalidate my previous questions because my question said, how did you come from the backgrounds that you came from and is it where you are? Well, now when you've explained it, it seems quite obvious. Because I mean, what you've done is you, you've done what you were good at, you know, and, and you've ended up with something which is validated. I think it's a great testament to the power of that validation and the experimentation and, and, and trying different things, right? And engaging with your potential customer base. And I don't think many of many companies fail because they don't do that. Have you found that you've chosen your niche? You chose your niche which was AI through that kind of experimentation and that kind of testing hypotheses etcetera. But now that is it fair to say that that AI niche now is actually it wasn't maybe a small niche and now it's becoming actually quite a really large niche. Yeah. Within that new niches are generated in the meantime. Yeah. And I don't know who who is the best to explain the context engineering thing that that we are doing now or what would you like to, or should I, we just call Ryan? Yeah, I say you can everyone listen, Ryan's the new CTO. Yeah, you can, you can start and I, I can add my thoughts if necessary, but I don't think so. All right, So in most of the cases, So what we do because like it's often asked from us. OK. But is AI coming for for the software developers? And my answer is that maybe AI is coming for the coders, but it's not coming for for the software engineers. Because in most of the case, in most of the projects that we are working on these days is that our job is to do context engineering, meaning that we have to understand the business goal and we have to apply AI in a way that so it OK, I'll give you an example. So you cannot do that. You give like 1000 pages of text to the AI and, and write the prompt and ask the question. You have to figure out how to slice up the information and how to organise it, which models to use for which step within the model and how to get the the result that's the the most optimal for the business result. For the for the less expensive price or if you have to optimise for time under the shortest period of time and so on and so forth. Because and yeah, and this became a new engineering challenge that was, I cannot say it was not existing a few years ago because it was AI is not a new thing, but it now like even small start up has to buy engineers who has the skill. I mean, it's the thing that I have been reflecting on and I won't talk about my role, my new role. I'll say that a little. I'm so curious. Can you talk a little bit? Can you talk about your new role? Is it fair to ask doctor from the interviewer? I can't talk about my new role at the moment. I can't, I haven't, but but I will, I will do. I will do an episode where I talk about my my journey of, you know, being a founder and then kind of decided not to carry on that for a while because of an amazing opportunity. But Needless to say, it's something AI related. And they found that on deep reflection, the term AI is almost, I almost try not to use it anymore because it's too broad. I mean, you and I think of like an organization that you're working with and you say you talk about AI to lots of different functions. It means different things to different people. If I talk to a marketing department, they're just thinking of SAS apps, right? They log into CAMFA or Gamma or something and they, they use AI, but also they're, they're still just SAS apps. These apps, probably a lot of these existed before AI was a thing. They're just utilizing AI as part of it. If I talk to some of the people that I, some people in organisations who are much more technically focused, they'll be talking Barbara, about the things that you're saying, like using tools like NAN to build complex workflows and doing things like a genetic retrieval, augmented generation, and those types of interesting things, which are kind of much more kind of pushing the envelope what we've perceived as AI. So do you find that when you're engaging with customers, there's an education piece to have? Understand this Exactly. I mean, Bobby, you said what's the goal and how does kind of AI help? But do you find that it's almost becoming so broad now that just using the term AI almost leads people down the wrong path because of their experience and their biases? Yeah. Welcome to your life. Yeah. Absolutely. So it's it's quite painful to be honest. And when we were preparing for the conversation, we decided to share one, one thing at least about this thing is what it's. So what we found is most of the people who are coming up with a new project idea, they are reading like LinkedIn headlines and listening the 1st 12 minutes of the podcast episode. Where it where it leads is that they are like coming in with absolutely unrealistic expectations. And like, let me give you an example. Like for example, the fact that AI is cutting the costs dramatically. It is true and it is false at the same time. It is true for example, for prototyping projects or completely like Greenfield, like enterprise project where you start something from, from zero. But in case of like in, in case of like RFPs, like could you rewrite this 15 year old legacy code system that was built by 200 engineers, 50 of them in I40 of them in Vietnam, 3 in America and so on and so forth. And yeah, it's the results of acquisition of five different companies that we merged together. And, and in these cases it can optimise a bit like 15% ish thing, but it it's not reducing the cost with 80%. And like, sometimes it's quite annoying, like working on proposals for like long days and then it turns out that the client's expectation was that OK, why isn't it 80% cheaper as I read on LinkedIn? And yeah, there's a lot of education here, but I guess Barbara also has stories from the delivery part. That's also I wanted to add that the landscape is changing. So two years ago, every client client reached out to us to implement some kind of AI solution within his or her product. So they felt that the investors and the market want some AI features. And right now, the request that usually comes from our clients to use AI in the development process and become more productive. And they understand that it's not always necessary to have an AI feature in the product, but it's necessary to have a reliable agency who is using AI in their development workflows and can build up processes with agents to optimise the development process. And with the help of an agency like Bobcats Coding, they can go to the market 1st or or earlier than any other competitors. It's, it's such a it's great. Yeah. It's a really critical distinction. It's a really critical distinction. And it just isn't widely acceptable. People don't talk about it or it gets lost in this blanket AI term. And so for those of you watching on video, you'll probably see that the sun is slowly encroaching onto my arm. So I might have to stand up in a moment and just pull the blinds. But we'll keep going for a second. But it's a really important, it's a really important distinction because I think whereas for many people, AI is just ChatGPT, right? Or AI is now what they're seeing at top of the Google search result. And that alone is pretty mind blowing, but actually, but to your point that you've got your solution may not have anything to do with AI in it. However, your time to testing the idea in the market can be reduced significantly if you get the right people with the right mindset using AI tools to help with that process. And it may not be AI think maybe actually maybe that's where you get the 80% improvements isn't actually like the the time it takes to reduce the cost of maintaining a code base, but actually your time to market. I think people want to benefit from AI, but it's not always the way they first think they can benefit from it. So often our job is to explain them that there are different ways to benefit from the improvements in the field of AI. So building on this, yeah, there was a podcast episode, I think it was one of Lenny's podcast episodes, and they were talking about the AI usage in organisations and how actually where people are seeing a huge amount of benefit is in the operational side of things. Which, which, which for me, as somebody that spent years studying business analysis, analysis methods and UML and the rest of it, I look at what people are doing with agentic workflows. And it just makes me feel very nostalgic because it reminds me of all the all the things that I was taught back at university 20 something years ago where you had to draw these things. But now you can draw these things and it actually does the work for you. And I think that's just, that's just quite fucking mind blowing. They're in a world where you can do this. But like with that with got gone, Barbara, let's say a practical example from more companies. So for example, from the sales marketing point of view, and this is my question, but that's what I can talk about. So the output and the throughput that we can deliver now would be about like 3 years ago. I give you the example. So what we do now is like we are coming out with research papers. We are organizing events on top of them. We do a lot of PPC ads to like have crowds in our events in the United States. And for example, how we were launching a new study or a new research papers five years ago, we collected the insights, we wrote it in Hungarian or like with our English. Then we had to employ a ghostwriter who rewrote everything. Then we had to and we normally employ the local ghostwriter because that was cheaper. Then we send that that copy to British or UK with a British or an American based like Lecter who corrected it. Then it came back, we gave it to the graphic designer. So it was a two months process or three months process and costed like 5 times more money than how how much it costs now. Because eight out of the 10 steps could be done by AI and we can focus on what we are good at is the content itself. And we don't have to like lose a lot of time with the rest. And, and, and the same stands for software development. So we just, just to give you a practical example, we just finished a project for an American client. It was an MVP and we finished the whole development process within six weeks. And the interesting part is that the client has a milestone after the first three-week. He wanted to demo the application on a conference to show it to real potential users and just give them a chance to try it. And we were able to finish that development project within three weeks to give first version to the client. And he was able to successfully use it on a conference. And it was imagine unimaginable, I don't know, 1 1/2 year ago. Yeah, I. I remember years and years ago a particular, a technique called RAD, it's called RAD, it's rapid application development, you know, and this is where you had a key, had a coder sitting with a, with a business person effectively and they would sit together and they would develop the application there. And then. You know, I think I wonder a lot of the techniques and things which people have spent decades trying to make work and have now been kind of thrown away at almost, you know, a lot of particularly old are agile ideas. You know, I think now's like, I just wish that the the uptick in agile was happening at the same time, there's the uptake in AI because I think that now we can actually do a lot of the things which agile asked us to do, which just weren't possible before. And I think it's such an amazing time to be in this industry. I'm grateful that I'm just on the cusp of being like not too old to actually still have a have a pace in the industry because I think it's really phenomenally exciting times, absolutely exciting. And sometimes it's positively exciting. Sometimes it's like sweaty exciting, like, OK, great. It's it's like it's new technology and it's exciting. But what are we going to do now? Like what should we do with the team? What, how should we like restructure our proposals? Like, yeah, what's what's going to happen to the sales pipeline of the company? So it's yeah, different, yeah. For you guys, it's a different, different perspective to mine. You know, I think it, it is scary. I but I think, you know, having run my own business for 5 1/2 years or so. And when I think about how, particularly when we first started the podcast, you know, as a wonderful person who you guys it wouldn't have met, you wouldn't You'll meet her in Lisbon, that Lady called Shereen who works with me. And you know, when I think when we first started all of this, yeah, the amount of effort we put into doing stuff and our throughput was low. And then as we really began to really make use of AI tools really early on, we found we were capable of so much more. I think that doing what you do, running an agency, you know, looking at pipeline, trying to predict those things, that's that kind of must be incredibly difficult. Do you find that? You are do you find you're able to do it on instinct or data or a mix? And how much does AI play a play a role in how you operate your organization and keep that sales pipeline there, the sales marketing point? Absolutely. But I guess I already told a few stories about that and from the operation part as well, but it's more Barbara's cup of tea. Yeah, it's it's since Bobcat coding is a small organization, I think it's not shaping our everyday life that much. But if we speak about the development work flows and how we organize our work as a development agency when producing software, it's totally reshaped it. I cannot say that we revisited our processes the the the old agile workflows because we are in a continuous process improvement right now. Because Speaking of the landscape of software development, there is a new tool, a new improvement every week. And what we are trying to do is to enhance knowledge sharing within the team. So these software developers are spending time on improving our processes and how we do the software development process every week. And our new CTO Ryan, who was mentioned before is also responsible for coming up a new, how we call it human in the loop multi agent workflow to support our clients. In practice it means that we do really rapid 48 hours long sprints with the developers and we follow a feature first approach. So basically the developers are developing two or three features parallelly and we are not spending much time on on on planning and going into the details. But we came up with three or five different options for a feature. We demo it to the client and we decide how to move on. And this makes the whole development process more quick and and more tangible in a way. Who is com Bobby, I can give you like why Barbara was talking. There is maybe one more interesting example for how to speed up like sales operations, if that makes sense. So what we do is like we or I connect like Crystal knows ChatGPT and Notion AI. When I'm, I have to like send a proposal and back at the time I had to like take all the notes like you open everything, like write, like write some like debrief to the client and and then go through all the like language checking process. And what we do now is that I call all the meeting notes from the AI note takers or from the notion that I did, I download the new client's personality type from Crystal knows. That's something that analyse your personality from your LinkedIn and social media presence. And it's what I call Crystal notes. Crystal knows Crystal knows like knows you can Google it like no like like knowledge like I know oh OK yeah not nose like the thing on my face Crystal nose like OK, great, fantastic. And so, so I take this personality profile, like add it as a prompt to check GPT and then like I, I get the first draft of the proposal, upload that notion, that Notion AI, like give me some suggestions how to restructure it, battle for the Notion template that we are using. And then what I do manually is just a spreadsheet that time very, very where we calm them, where we do the maths and that's it. And like, I don't say it's 10%, but I would say like it's 40% of the time than it was two years ago. They're fascinating. OK, Crystal knows I haven't heard of this before, but it's really interesting. I'm going to take a look at this. It will feel uncomfortable and wonderful at the same time. The best things are always the things that in start off uncomfortable. I think you know, but I, I don't know if you've found this in your organization, but have you found that by using generative AI and AI chat bots that you've. It's made you address anything about yourselves. Has it has has it changed you both in any way kind of interacting with this technology. Actually, Barb you're you're you're definitely you're doing on your head. Barbara, has it changed you? Yeah, of course. I think it totally reshaped. I approach a task on my, on my list, even the way I organize my tasks, I organize my emails because all the regular tools we use have now AI features that makes it easier to use, makes it easier to prioritize or makes it easier to create new, new documents to, to summarize them. And, and I think it's just seamlessly integrate into the daily processes. I, I really like trying new tools. So I'm, I'm continuously just checking out the newest AI note taker and comparing it with the one that we are using. Yeah, it it, it has some effects on the organization's organization itself, but it's kind of shaping the way and how I work. And in the last month we had a trainee at Bobcats coding. It was an internship and she was working with mainly administrative and back office related stuffs. And back then at Green Fox Academy, I was responsible for leading a huge legal, finance and administration team. So I had the chance to onboard new team members, even junior team members. And when we had this new intern at Bobcats Coding who is only 20 years old, that was the first time when I felt the huge difference between her generation and my generation. And I mean the way how we approach work. Because when she entered the labour market and finished her studies in a field, generative AI was already a thing. So from the first moment, she approached the labour market with a mindset where she's sure that she can use AI in her daily work. And her first thought is how can I make it easier for myself to finish this task with the help of AI? And it was really, really inspiring for me as well. Yeah, I'm glad you found it inspiring, because I think some people would find that fucking terrifying, you know? Swearing is allowed in the podcast, by the way, although I did have this. I did. I did have a moment the other week where I was driving my son's friend home and he was nine years old. And he said, I've been listening to a podcast. Then I'm like, what? You've what why you've been listening to my podcast. He's like, oh, well, could you sponsor our football team? So I thought I should listen. It's very good. I liked the episode you did. And I was like, was there much swearing in that episode? There was quite a lot of swearing, yes, for Dylan, if you listen to this mate, I'm sorry if I if I I swore then, but thank you for listening, Dylan. I appreciate your your listenership. ABBA. I know we're running out of time. There's a few questions I really want to ask Bubba, There's something you were saying there about bringing in this young person with a totally different mindset, this kind of almost AI native AI first style mindset, which is which is huge. Do you think that organisations that want to make the most of AI in their customer facing products will be hindered, It will be less successful unless they can embed that mindset culturally that that, that that young person AI native mindset culture in the organization. Like does it in order to really succeed, right and really turn the dial and using AI as part of a solution or an AI solution, you need that AI first AI native mindset throughout the organization to really kind of make the most of it yes, like like Toyash, I guess Toyash finished his last presentation at productize saying that like it's not AI going to take our jobs, but it's some experts in my field who uses AI for, for doing the job. So I guess it's it's a no brainer. Absolutely, yes. I, I think it's inevitable. So I think organizations who are not starting to adopt to this new technology and how it how it's shaping even the their culture will not succeed. I give you a different angle. So from, from our business is that like we often have to talk at conferences and always there is a lawyer somewhere in the audience standing up and asking, but what about the ethical aspect of, of AI? And like what about the EU, like EU Act and things like that. And from the practice, we can say that American companies who we are like 95% working for, they couldn't care less and couldn't care less. And like maybe somewhere in Germany they are going to think about like, is it like legally or data protection wise? OK to you this why the big markets is like it's, it's, it's not among the top 1000 problems. I was going to ask about the EU Act because I've been having some interesting conversations recently. And one thing I find interesting is that a lot of the, when it comes to AI policies or the EU Act and people put out all these, they put lots of questions about it. And actually there's something I was going to bring up earlier. And Barbara, there's something that you were saying is that there's, there seems to be this confusion almost in organisations between AI solutions and solutions which use AI. And so then they're saying, oh, well, we need to do all of this because it's got AI. But you've been using tools very, very similar to this for years and you haven't been through all of this and now they're using AI. So are they in scope for this because they're a is products or because they're products that use AI? There's a, the distinction between AI solutions and solutions that use AI that is, so it's so blurred as to be insignificant. And I think that the rules that people are trying to apply to AI, probably with some of the things they should have been thinking about when they're using any kind of SAS app online. Historically and in the UK, you've had such strict legislation on data protection and now we have GDPR that I think actually a lot of the stuff that's coming up isn't like it's no great shapes because you look at it well, fair enough. We, we've been compliant with that. So we'll just just carry on. There's no massive leap. That wasn't a question. That was just me ranting on a little bit, but I don't know. Yeah, absolutely. But once I've been to your very soulful like panel discussion about how legislation will be able to control or not control this revolution going on. And there was a very smart, like, I guess almost 70 year old like lawyer guy sitting in the panel discussion saying that what we should understand is that the framework of, of legislation was created to like make rules for things that we know. And that's why it's very hard to like apply for technology where we like, it's changing week by week. So, so it's, it's impossible to follow this with, with something such robust as like EU legislation. So, yeah. But I, I could spend an hour talking about policies and legislation regardless of this, but our time is nearly up. And I know that you are both extraordinarily busy, like successful owners of businesses running Bobcats case. I don't want to keep you but too much beyond our allotted time because I guess you got somewhere important to go. And I know that Ryan is going to be wanting to kind of see you because he's just come in the office. I'll I'll I'll park my questions until we meet up again in person and we'll bring this episode to a close. But it's been really fascinating. I feel that we've just kind of scratched the surface of the depth of conversation we could be having. But we are, you know, Barbie, I'll be seeing you in in Lisbon. That's correct, isn't it? And lots of other people. We're going to be broadcast going to be front and centre on all the product agility episodes that are going to be coming out, which would be wonderful. Have my new Co host. So announcing a big, big news. I'm getting a Co host who is my one of my longest and most cherished friends. That awful term. I think people used to say we were work, work husband and wife. Her name is Saloni, founder of a company called Our Future AI World, and I'll send you a link to that as I mentioned, and she's going to be joining us as well. So it's going to be an awesome, awesome series of episodes. Before we do wrap up the episode though, we're going to be at productised. There'll be for lots of fantastic speakers and we're going to be interviewing every single one of them and Co interviewing them. There's going to be some really fantastic, like huge insightful conversations about AI and other things. So we'll see lots of listeners there, Barba, Barba, your position. So is there anything you would like to share of our listeners before we wrap up today? Well, it's hard to pick one, but I'm also super excited about meeting you all with product ties and talking to all the speakers and. And yeah, like maybe like the to wrap it up is that like we are in this AI revolution together. And I wish for all of us to be able to keep or like childlike minds in this in this thing and like focus on on the playfulness of this. Instead of the crisis or the economical like issues that it's going to, it's going to cause. So we have exciting times ahead and I like to play play in these plans and I hope we will all survive. So see you in Lisbon, Barbara, anything from you? Yeah. And for the ones who are not able to participate, the productised conference and meet you at Lisbon. I just wanted to mention that we have a great AI library at our website, bobcatscoding.com, and you should definitely check out a few white papers there, listen to podcasts. And last but not least, try a lot of new AI tools, play Vietnam with them and see what they can give you on a daily basis. That's it, thank you. We are not yet sponsoring any football teams, but we will, we will try so well, if you want to sponsor one of my local teams, they're always up for sponsorship. You know, they're great little teams that down here in Surrey. Funcom FC all the way. No, I'd love to see your logo on one of our tops. But my agility podcast does look pretty good on their shirts. But I love that I think playing with these tools is such an important thing that we need to do. And I think that the the best thing to do, I've always found when I'm anxious about any of these things is just tell myself it's good. Just tell myself it's good and just carry on. So yes, I can't wait to meet you in person. And Bobby, lovely to meet you virtually everyone. Thank you very much for listening. As I said, this is the yeah, we're back. Things are going to be bigger and better than the ever were before on the podcast. And it's awesome to start off with you guys. So everyone, thank you for listening. Barbara and Bobby, thank you very much for coming along and we'll see you all at Productized. See you. Thank you for having us. Thank you. Bye.